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Normalcy and Parental Units.
Jul. 7th, 2012 03:04 amThis is going to be a "...well then" moment, because yes, I did end up kind of - on a bit more mental "A;KSDJFA;S" edge than normal for me for a couple months. There was some conflict over how we were doing things between Mom and I, it'd gotten kind of bad, and was turning into a bit of a vicious cycle between my habit of being conflict-avoidant if it's "there's nothing to gain/it doesn't feel worth it" and her habit of being ... a noisy extroverted rooster that solves problems by fussing at them out loud.
Further not helped by me being sort of an introvert and coping with stress by "I'm gonna hide in my cave now and maybe have contact with a short list of people" while Mom is an extrovert who copes with stress via "PEOPLE! HI PEOPLE". I actually feel bad b/c Dad was caught in the middle a bit and playing moirail shooshpap at both of us and running into the wall where the guy in the middle can only do -so much-.
Aaand it kinda broke with me getting very upset for a few days and then Mom and I having a fight, of the sort that was a "walk away kind of shaken".
It also turned into actually sorting things out where the original conflict HAS been settled and things are back to basically normal.
And I will start here that one thing where I stopped and went "...well holy shit I'm lucky" was a few things about what, in our house, constitutes a serious/bad conflict and a serious/bad argument of the "My god this is unusual and highly upsetting" variety that I'm ... pretty sure is "normal family interaction" for a lot of people I know.
And this is where it becomes a case of "Whatever they've told you is normal healthy behavior? THIS is 'normal healthy human behavior and being a rational mature human being', COMPARE THE TWO."
1) Normal interaction with Mom and Dad, and Mom and I is - even if there's something going WRONG or someone screwed something up? "You missed something in X chore that's mutually agreed on as something you take care of, come here and get it" or occasionally "I got the pan that was on the stove :/ You forgot one". "This is a serious and unusual conflict" is where raised voices or "You need to remember these things, I shouldn't be doing this, don't bother I already got it" happens.
People who've known me for a while might note that "this is serious, unusual, and upsetting" is a timescale of a couple weeks after both of us had been stressing out over different things on a time table of THIRTY YEARS without ... me being able to remember some of this. Or that I'd commented on "..Okay, that's a once every couple years Mom-got-stressed rant and it's over so it's over" and then been very confused when it came up again.
It's NOT a normal daily occurence! :D
Nor did Dad, who does happen to be kind of as much of a diplomat/"dislike conflict would rather resolve things with some kind of compromise" treat it as "this is normal and the way things should be"; he was just as " ... ): D: " as I was, and as Mom was, and spent just as much, if not more, time prodding at Mom as he did trying to sort it out/talk it over with me. It was never a matter of Neutral Dance, and he actually acknowledged that "Yeah I did less of the main-house-chores than I should've b/c I'm kind of trying to avoid situations where I feel like I can't win/do anything right" was "...I'll see what I can do, this ISN'T normal and no, it's NOT right, she's human and let things get to her, just try to keep things up so they don't get too bad".
2) Thing That Never Happened: Getting actually, seriously insulted. Yes, boys and girls, even when it hit "Mom and I are kind of yelling at each other" there was never a "You're so stupid about this" or any kind of swearing. And even at the worst Mom got, there was "get upset, rant a bit, back off and start trying to talk calmed-down" where I do admit that me going "alksdfjas;/avoid" sort of drug it out longer than it needed to go! (Yes, Mom is an Aquarian Rooster and if she's really badly stressed/upset, she can get a lot of mileage out of "I shouldn't have to clean up behind you, you keep your own living spaces up better than this right?!" and then calming down into fussing at it.)
3) What Defines A ~SERIOUS FIGHT~: There were somewhat raised voices and a lot of - I can't even quite call it "ranting" by normal standards but it kind of was, back and forth, with a couple cases of interrupting/talking over, and a few incidents of me being visibly upset with headphones cranked up very loud. Somewhere about there it very abruptly went from Mom being frustrated AT me to kind of visibly smacked-in-face and floundering between being frustrated with the situation and upset by ME being upset. Even with both of us basically hitting "fuck it all saying what's on mind b/c upset/angry/etc.", there ... still weren't insults. (Dad kind of relocated/found an excuse to go do something in the garage until things quieted down and was doing a lot of stress " D: D: " for the entire day, too.) It lasted about ...oh... five? Eight? minutes, I retreated to my room for a few minutes, Mom called asking me to come out in a tone that was pretty obviously an "Oh god this is bad/I screwed up" tone, and most of the talking-out that came after was ... as much fussing over apologies and "I handled that badly and have been over-reacting, and I didn't realize this or this" with "This is what I was upset over but I shouldn't have acted the way I did", "You're NOT a failure and you do so much good and you're a wonderful daughter even if we disagree or you miss dishes sometimes", and actually talking it over.
Basically, it turned into an (albeit both directions rattled) mature adult conversation with both parties being treated with respect, not "Well I'm right and you're wrong", and with her actually acknowledging that yes, me retreating enough to let some chores go was me being upset and not some kind of willful attempt at laziness/sticking her with the work. (Also there was fussing over "I really do appreciate you helping and there's some things I honestly can't do with my knee where you don't know how much you help and I never meant for you to feel like it didn't matter".)
Amazingly enough, there also wasn't really, even during the actual FIGHT, any sarcasm, sniping, aiming for nerves, passive-aggressive "it's all your fault" comments; there was being kind of blunt as all fuck, but ... well, this is why I cringe when certain people I know talk about "normal interaction with their parents" like there's NOTHING ODD ABOUT IT.
Because it's a little terrifying that a big, "this hasn't happened before to my memory at all", spurt of unpleasantness and outright basically fighting with/getting along MISERABLY with my mother that is "this is unusual and horrible and awful and upsetting and I'm going to hide in my room a lot"...
Is basically "...Wait, you mean that's NOT normal and parents DON'T normally do that and huh that doesn't even sound like that bad of a day here if there's no actual belittling/passive-aggressive undermining going on"...
And that the thing where Mom ended up spending a good hour GENUINELY apologizing and fussing over me in a "You're wonderful and I never want you to feel worthless or like you're not loved and you do this, this and this that's GOOD and I want to see you do well", and then wibbling b/c she wants to fuss over me more but accepts "I kind of need quiet for a little bit I'll come back out later" with "Okay, we love you and I'll wrap the coffee cake and keep it here with the knife and things so you can get some when you feel up to eating" -
Would be "...WOW My Mom would never do that O_o."
So yeah. Normal, sane, mature family? Yes. It IS possible to end up having fights, or disagreeing on things, or having things where you annoy each other.
But no, it being passive-aggressive backbiting, undermining, reasons to sulk at each other, and "Oh well I said that but you know I don't mean it" or "Well we'll pat you on the head and make sympathetic noises while pointing out why anything you might be upset about is really all your fault and you SHOULDN'T be upset", is NOT a part of a normal loving family.
And yes, I know that Dad DID end up playing translator a couple times and DID prod at Mom about "I know you're upset but this is making things worse :/ ". And that there's a very large difference between what I hear as stories from a scary number of people I know as "normal interaction with family" and things that Mom twitches over as "this is not something I ever want to allow in my house and ISN'T how you treat another human being".
(FTR, Mom and I are pretty much back to normal, as evidenced by the fact that I ended up going to bed an hour later than I'd planned on it b/c on my way to bed we started talking about video games, and DRM, and why Steam's model where "even if the game has no online component whatsoever you can't play it unless you have an internet connection to log in and validate that you do, indeed, own that software" sucks/"I'll have to start playing on the consoles more too", and how the RIAA and MPAA are trying to be cyberpunk megacorporations. There's some things on politics and religion/morality we don't agree on, but it actually IS possible to have a mature conversation grounded in basically objective discussion where the point of conflict is more frame of reference and beliefs or trusted information than emotional investment and "If you disagree with this you're a Bad Person", and where there's acknowledgement of context and who's speaking where we'll both hit a point of happily accepting a subject drift or drop b/c of "the other person I'm debating with is a mature thinking adult that is intelligent and has principles they actually hold to, so I trust them to not be a douche about it/know they AREN'T actually a douche about it". We're also capable of having different interests and hobbies where yes, there's some things where one of us will get going and the other will hit "...nodding and making attempts at commentary but do not really follow" without even a glimmer of "That's weird and I don't know why you'd want to do that/have an interest in that". I've gotten "... ??? What is-" about some of the things I've picked up as hobbies/interests/started explaining b/c of a bad media portrayal before, but never a "...But why would you/that's weird *disappointed/disapproving tone*"; the worst I've gotten is a few blinks and a confused sounding "...Okay :D;; I don't follow but you're not hurting anyone". Aaaand I know we both have habits/routines that annoy each other/run at crossways, but there's never been "You are less of a person/a failure/weird and wrong and why are you doing that" about it, including me keeping weird hours.
Yes, the worst I've gotten for "You should be in bed :|" has to do with me being tired/miserable/igghy and/or not being up to things during the daytime so it's hard to go do things if I get TOO nocturnal for too long. And Mom's idea of "this is too late to stay up after" is 2-3 am. Which is, honestly, based partly on "When you stay up later you get sort of sick and brain-dead because you have a forty-decibel tiny feathered alarm clock with no snooze button :/".)
On the one hand, I know the above is the kind of thing that is an "oh god ow" because most of the people I know on here have never gotten that kind of thing from their families/even really had it sink in that this kind of behavior is a -THING- that people ACTUALLY DO outside of sappy old sitcoms.
On the other, THIS IS WHAT NORMAL LOOKS LIKE. NEVER FEEL BAD ABOUT BEING UPSET/HURT/NOT HAPPY WITH THE WAY YOUR FAMILY TREATS YOU AND WANTING OUT, BECAUSE WHATEVER THEY MAY SAY, UNDERMINING YOU, BELITTLING YOU, REFUSING TO ACCEPT YOU AS A THINKING INDIVIDUAL, AND NOT TREATING YOU WITH RESPECT IS -NOT- THE ACTIONS OF KIND AND LOVING PARENTS.
Oh, and why some of that is ground rules "NO THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE IN THIS HOUSE FROM ANYONE" and Mom getting the horrified "oh god apologizing and fussing over" for managing to even accidentally make me feel miserable WITHOUT going into the passive-aggressive manipulative/belittling/undermining bullshit? Mom's mother - my grandmother - WAS abusive; Mom made those ground rules before I was born, on her own, out of "fuck no that was horrible and I don't want any child of mine to go through that/nobody should be treated that way"... so she built her ground rules around "This is what Mom did that hurt me this badly, so it's NEVER an okay thing". Mom's stories about her childhood are special and horrifying, and do include things like "Yeah, she was so good at being nice and pleasant around other people that even with physical marks nobody would believe me it was her and it was years where I thought it was something wrong with me.".
So NEVER let them get away with an excuse, especially coming from someone else apologizing for them, of "Well they were abused/stressed/whatever so it's okay". Because fuck that shit, I have a living example of a mature, real, fallible, occasionally obnoxious and overbearing human being that, even at her WORST and most acting-on-emotion upset, still recognizes that shit like that is wrong and not acceptable behavior and still retains enough empathy to stop and backpedal and start fixing it the second I'm visibly seriously upset, and all of their "Well I was stressed so I got upset and that's why you should be okay with it" or "Well she was abused so it's what she's used to and she never HITS you so it's okay" is AUTOMATICALLY ARGUMENT INVALID because YES, VIRGINIA, THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR ACTIONS TO NOT DO THAT SHIT TO OTHERS NO MATTER HOW UPSET/STRESSED/BAD BACKGROUND/WHATEVER THEY ARE.
Further not helped by me being sort of an introvert and coping with stress by "I'm gonna hide in my cave now and maybe have contact with a short list of people" while Mom is an extrovert who copes with stress via "PEOPLE! HI PEOPLE". I actually feel bad b/c Dad was caught in the middle a bit and playing moirail shooshpap at both of us and running into the wall where the guy in the middle can only do -so much-.
Aaand it kinda broke with me getting very upset for a few days and then Mom and I having a fight, of the sort that was a "walk away kind of shaken".
It also turned into actually sorting things out where the original conflict HAS been settled and things are back to basically normal.
And I will start here that one thing where I stopped and went "...well holy shit I'm lucky" was a few things about what, in our house, constitutes a serious/bad conflict and a serious/bad argument of the "My god this is unusual and highly upsetting" variety that I'm ... pretty sure is "normal family interaction" for a lot of people I know.
And this is where it becomes a case of "Whatever they've told you is normal healthy behavior? THIS is 'normal healthy human behavior and being a rational mature human being', COMPARE THE TWO."
1) Normal interaction with Mom and Dad, and Mom and I is - even if there's something going WRONG or someone screwed something up? "You missed something in X chore that's mutually agreed on as something you take care of, come here and get it" or occasionally "I got the pan that was on the stove :/ You forgot one". "This is a serious and unusual conflict" is where raised voices or "You need to remember these things, I shouldn't be doing this, don't bother I already got it" happens.
People who've known me for a while might note that "this is serious, unusual, and upsetting" is a timescale of a couple weeks after both of us had been stressing out over different things on a time table of THIRTY YEARS without ... me being able to remember some of this. Or that I'd commented on "..Okay, that's a once every couple years Mom-got-stressed rant and it's over so it's over" and then been very confused when it came up again.
It's NOT a normal daily occurence! :D
Nor did Dad, who does happen to be kind of as much of a diplomat/"dislike conflict would rather resolve things with some kind of compromise" treat it as "this is normal and the way things should be"; he was just as " ... ): D: " as I was, and as Mom was, and spent just as much, if not more, time prodding at Mom as he did trying to sort it out/talk it over with me. It was never a matter of Neutral Dance, and he actually acknowledged that "Yeah I did less of the main-house-chores than I should've b/c I'm kind of trying to avoid situations where I feel like I can't win/do anything right" was "...I'll see what I can do, this ISN'T normal and no, it's NOT right, she's human and let things get to her, just try to keep things up so they don't get too bad".
2) Thing That Never Happened: Getting actually, seriously insulted. Yes, boys and girls, even when it hit "Mom and I are kind of yelling at each other" there was never a "You're so stupid about this" or any kind of swearing. And even at the worst Mom got, there was "get upset, rant a bit, back off and start trying to talk calmed-down" where I do admit that me going "alksdfjas;/avoid" sort of drug it out longer than it needed to go! (Yes, Mom is an Aquarian Rooster and if she's really badly stressed/upset, she can get a lot of mileage out of "I shouldn't have to clean up behind you, you keep your own living spaces up better than this right?!" and then calming down into fussing at it.)
3) What Defines A ~SERIOUS FIGHT~: There were somewhat raised voices and a lot of - I can't even quite call it "ranting" by normal standards but it kind of was, back and forth, with a couple cases of interrupting/talking over, and a few incidents of me being visibly upset with headphones cranked up very loud. Somewhere about there it very abruptly went from Mom being frustrated AT me to kind of visibly smacked-in-face and floundering between being frustrated with the situation and upset by ME being upset. Even with both of us basically hitting "fuck it all saying what's on mind b/c upset/angry/etc.", there ... still weren't insults. (Dad kind of relocated/found an excuse to go do something in the garage until things quieted down and was doing a lot of stress " D: D: " for the entire day, too.) It lasted about ...oh... five? Eight? minutes, I retreated to my room for a few minutes, Mom called asking me to come out in a tone that was pretty obviously an "Oh god this is bad/I screwed up" tone, and most of the talking-out that came after was ... as much fussing over apologies and "I handled that badly and have been over-reacting, and I didn't realize this or this" with "This is what I was upset over but I shouldn't have acted the way I did", "You're NOT a failure and you do so much good and you're a wonderful daughter even if we disagree or you miss dishes sometimes", and actually talking it over.
Basically, it turned into an (albeit both directions rattled) mature adult conversation with both parties being treated with respect, not "Well I'm right and you're wrong", and with her actually acknowledging that yes, me retreating enough to let some chores go was me being upset and not some kind of willful attempt at laziness/sticking her with the work. (Also there was fussing over "I really do appreciate you helping and there's some things I honestly can't do with my knee where you don't know how much you help and I never meant for you to feel like it didn't matter".)
Amazingly enough, there also wasn't really, even during the actual FIGHT, any sarcasm, sniping, aiming for nerves, passive-aggressive "it's all your fault" comments; there was being kind of blunt as all fuck, but ... well, this is why I cringe when certain people I know talk about "normal interaction with their parents" like there's NOTHING ODD ABOUT IT.
Because it's a little terrifying that a big, "this hasn't happened before to my memory at all", spurt of unpleasantness and outright basically fighting with/getting along MISERABLY with my mother that is "this is unusual and horrible and awful and upsetting and I'm going to hide in my room a lot"...
Is basically "...Wait, you mean that's NOT normal and parents DON'T normally do that and huh that doesn't even sound like that bad of a day here if there's no actual belittling/passive-aggressive undermining going on"...
And that the thing where Mom ended up spending a good hour GENUINELY apologizing and fussing over me in a "You're wonderful and I never want you to feel worthless or like you're not loved and you do this, this and this that's GOOD and I want to see you do well", and then wibbling b/c she wants to fuss over me more but accepts "I kind of need quiet for a little bit I'll come back out later" with "Okay, we love you and I'll wrap the coffee cake and keep it here with the knife and things so you can get some when you feel up to eating" -
Would be "...WOW My Mom would never do that O_o."
So yeah. Normal, sane, mature family? Yes. It IS possible to end up having fights, or disagreeing on things, or having things where you annoy each other.
But no, it being passive-aggressive backbiting, undermining, reasons to sulk at each other, and "Oh well I said that but you know I don't mean it" or "Well we'll pat you on the head and make sympathetic noises while pointing out why anything you might be upset about is really all your fault and you SHOULDN'T be upset", is NOT a part of a normal loving family.
And yes, I know that Dad DID end up playing translator a couple times and DID prod at Mom about "I know you're upset but this is making things worse :/ ". And that there's a very large difference between what I hear as stories from a scary number of people I know as "normal interaction with family" and things that Mom twitches over as "this is not something I ever want to allow in my house and ISN'T how you treat another human being".
(FTR, Mom and I are pretty much back to normal, as evidenced by the fact that I ended up going to bed an hour later than I'd planned on it b/c on my way to bed we started talking about video games, and DRM, and why Steam's model where "even if the game has no online component whatsoever you can't play it unless you have an internet connection to log in and validate that you do, indeed, own that software" sucks/"I'll have to start playing on the consoles more too", and how the RIAA and MPAA are trying to be cyberpunk megacorporations. There's some things on politics and religion/morality we don't agree on, but it actually IS possible to have a mature conversation grounded in basically objective discussion where the point of conflict is more frame of reference and beliefs or trusted information than emotional investment and "If you disagree with this you're a Bad Person", and where there's acknowledgement of context and who's speaking where we'll both hit a point of happily accepting a subject drift or drop b/c of "the other person I'm debating with is a mature thinking adult that is intelligent and has principles they actually hold to, so I trust them to not be a douche about it/know they AREN'T actually a douche about it". We're also capable of having different interests and hobbies where yes, there's some things where one of us will get going and the other will hit "...nodding and making attempts at commentary but do not really follow" without even a glimmer of "That's weird and I don't know why you'd want to do that/have an interest in that". I've gotten "... ??? What is-" about some of the things I've picked up as hobbies/interests/started explaining b/c of a bad media portrayal before, but never a "...But why would you/that's weird *disappointed/disapproving tone*"; the worst I've gotten is a few blinks and a confused sounding "...Okay :D;; I don't follow but you're not hurting anyone". Aaaand I know we both have habits/routines that annoy each other/run at crossways, but there's never been "You are less of a person/a failure/weird and wrong and why are you doing that" about it, including me keeping weird hours.
Yes, the worst I've gotten for "You should be in bed :|" has to do with me being tired/miserable/igghy and/or not being up to things during the daytime so it's hard to go do things if I get TOO nocturnal for too long. And Mom's idea of "this is too late to stay up after" is 2-3 am. Which is, honestly, based partly on "When you stay up later you get sort of sick and brain-dead because you have a forty-decibel tiny feathered alarm clock with no snooze button :/".)
On the one hand, I know the above is the kind of thing that is an "oh god ow" because most of the people I know on here have never gotten that kind of thing from their families/even really had it sink in that this kind of behavior is a -THING- that people ACTUALLY DO outside of sappy old sitcoms.
On the other, THIS IS WHAT NORMAL LOOKS LIKE. NEVER FEEL BAD ABOUT BEING UPSET/HURT/NOT HAPPY WITH THE WAY YOUR FAMILY TREATS YOU AND WANTING OUT, BECAUSE WHATEVER THEY MAY SAY, UNDERMINING YOU, BELITTLING YOU, REFUSING TO ACCEPT YOU AS A THINKING INDIVIDUAL, AND NOT TREATING YOU WITH RESPECT IS -NOT- THE ACTIONS OF KIND AND LOVING PARENTS.
Oh, and why some of that is ground rules "NO THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE IN THIS HOUSE FROM ANYONE" and Mom getting the horrified "oh god apologizing and fussing over" for managing to even accidentally make me feel miserable WITHOUT going into the passive-aggressive manipulative/belittling/undermining bullshit? Mom's mother - my grandmother - WAS abusive; Mom made those ground rules before I was born, on her own, out of "fuck no that was horrible and I don't want any child of mine to go through that/nobody should be treated that way"... so she built her ground rules around "This is what Mom did that hurt me this badly, so it's NEVER an okay thing". Mom's stories about her childhood are special and horrifying, and do include things like "Yeah, she was so good at being nice and pleasant around other people that even with physical marks nobody would believe me it was her and it was years where I thought it was something wrong with me.".
So NEVER let them get away with an excuse, especially coming from someone else apologizing for them, of "Well they were abused/stressed/whatever so it's okay". Because fuck that shit, I have a living example of a mature, real, fallible, occasionally obnoxious and overbearing human being that, even at her WORST and most acting-on-emotion upset, still recognizes that shit like that is wrong and not acceptable behavior and still retains enough empathy to stop and backpedal and start fixing it the second I'm visibly seriously upset, and all of their "Well I was stressed so I got upset and that's why you should be okay with it" or "Well she was abused so it's what she's used to and she never HITS you so it's okay" is AUTOMATICALLY ARGUMENT INVALID because YES, VIRGINIA, THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR ACTIONS TO NOT DO THAT SHIT TO OTHERS NO MATTER HOW UPSET/STRESSED/BAD BACKGROUND/WHATEVER THEY ARE.
